[Darin Detwiler] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Spoiler Alert! I'm Dr. Darin Detwiler.
[Callin Godson-Green] I'm Callin Godson-Green.
[Darin Detwiler] Excellent. And we have traveled from you from the East Coast and me from the West Coast. We're here in Cleveland, Ohio for the International Association for Food Protection, IAFP Conference. And you know, my last big exotic trip was Mexico City. And you know who I met up with in Mexico City?
[Callin Godson-Green] Who?
[Darin Detwiler] Spoiler alert. Our guest, Quincy Lassar, welcome.
[Quincy Lissaur] Thank you, Darin. Thank you. Good to see you again.
[Darin Detwiler] Good to see you again, too. You're feeling well.
[Quincy Lissaur] I'm feeling much better than I did in Mexico City, that's for sure.
[Darin Detwiler] It was quite the adventure, the highs and lows of Mexico City during that week, right? Indeed.
[Quincy Lissaur] For those who have no idea who you are, tell us a little bit about who you are and about who you're working with these days. Yeah, absolutely. So talking about exotic, right? So I was born in the Netherlands, raised in Rio, Brazil, educated here in the US, lived in London for 13 years. And for the last 12 years, I've been living in Colombia. So nowadays, I'm based out of Medellin, Colombia. I'm very lucky in that I get to run an organization that is global in nature. My board members are all over the world as well. So they don't particularly care where I live, other than I need to be on a plane and come to these exciting places like Cleveland, Ohio.
[Darin Detwiler] Well, before we talk about your organization, and by the way, I'm feeling very inadequate in terms of my global experience here. How did you get into food safety? What's your background?
[Quincy Lissaur] So my background actually is in business. And I started working out of college here in the US for a management consulting firm. And they moved me to London about a year later. And in 2004, I got headhunted by the British Standards Institution. And what was quite excited about that was that over time, I ended up doing a lot of standards in the sustainability space and food safety. And at one point, we were asked by some leading manufacturers around the world to develop an add-on to ISO 22000, which was named PASS 220, which then was ultimately used to help and allow FSSC to benchmark their program to the GFSI requirements. And as I started developing that standard, which was for manufacturers, we did another one for retail, then we did another one for animal food and feed, and then we did one for packaging. And I kind of got sucked into this entire food space over time. And by 2012, when I left, I did a piece of work for the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health. And all of a sudden, I got this organization called SSAFE, who I'd done some of this standards work with, knocking on my door to say, hey, we're looking for a part-time executive director. Are you interested? I said, sure, but I may be moving to Columbia. And they're like, Columbia, South Carolina? I'm like, no, Columbia, South America. There is a South in there. And they said, well, look, our board members are all over the world. So it doesn't really matter where you're based. But because we partner a lot with organizations that are based in the US, in Europe, and in Asia, we do need you to travel A lot. And since 2013, I've been the executive director of this organization.
[Darin Detwiler] Let's talk about S-Safe. Let's talk about this organization. What exactly does S-Safe do?
[Quincy Lissaur] So SSAFE really works on emerging issues that affect the safe supply and trade of food around the world. It emerged out of the avian influenza crisis in 2003, when Cargill, Keystone, and McDonald's couldn't ship cooked poultry out of China into Southeast Asia, Japan, and South Korea, even though they were supposed to, because if you cook poultry at 68 degrees for 30 seconds or more, there are no remnants of avian influenza, and therefore it should be able to be traded. And it says so in the standards of the World Organization of Animal Health. but countries weren't adhering to it. So a couple of leading lights in the industry, Mike Robach and Crawford, flew to Paris, met with Dr. Bernard Vallad, the director general of OAE at the time, now WOA, and he said, look, I'd love to work with you guys, but I can't just do work with one or two companies. Why did you start thinking about setting up a public-private partnership to bring together the private sector, with the public sector, with intergovernmental organizations, academia and NGOs to work on these types of emerging issues. And that's exactly how the organization was founded. 23 years on, we still do the exact same. So we identify these new and emerging issues. We then have dialogue with FAO, who we have an MOU with, WOA, World Trade Organization, Codex Alimentarius, some cases, FDA, USDA, and say, okay, we're seeing this problem. Are you seeing this too? How can we work together to resolve it? And that's really what we do.
[Darin Detwiler] I think of things like in gears, right? The political side of things, very slow moving. A lot of interruptions. Industry, faster, but sometimes consumer preference, consumer behavior, consumer demand. might even be faster. I'm imagining that this idea of public-private partnership is to kind of balance the demands of these different speeds.
[Quincy Lissaur] Absolutely. And not only the speeds, but also making sure that we bring everybody together. That really is the core thing, because we cannot do these things alone. If you look at my membership, they're 12 of the largest food businesses in the world. So from Cargill and OSI at the front end of the food supply chain with farmers and farming ingredients, to ingredient suppliers like Givaudin and carry to large manufacturers, Nestle, Dano, Mars, PepsiCo, Coca-Cola, to then finally to the consumer end with McDonald's and Compass Group. They all realize that if they have a problem in their part of the supply chain, it isn't limited to them. It is across the entire food supply chain. And therefore, by working together, we are stronger and we can solve these problems better. That is within the private sector. However, It goes beyond that because we're dealing with regulatory systems. We're dealing with regulatory standards. And in that global space, therefore, it is so important to work with the intergovernmental organizations, particularly the three sisters, WOA, FAO, WHO, from a trade perspective, because we move everything across borders. You've got the World Trade Organization, but then you also have the NGOs, and the academia who have a lot of knowledge and experience that they can bring to the table. And what we then try to do is bring all that together and make it into something rational that we can give away for free for the benefit of all.
[Darin Detwiler] I don't mean to literally call it a spoiler alert, but you have mentioned so many companies and so many steps between the farm to the table. I would imagine that most consumers have no idea that some of these companies work in tandem or in partnership or as clients and distributors, things like that. They just kind of see the end result, the end packaging or the end retail, the end restaurant. But that lack of awareness of all those things in between the source and the table, if you will. That must create a lot of opportunities where that assumption leads to the general population question, why do we need this kind of a partnership? What do you say in terms of that, why do we need these kind of partnerships?
[Quincy Lissaur] It's all about complexity, right? If you have a problem with undercooked chicken that has salmonella in it at a restaurant, because the salmonella came from a farm where there was salmonella present, Consumers can get sick, or even worse, consumers can die. So what are we trying to do? We're trying to work together to make sure that does not happen. But that is complex to do. So take, for example, our new regulation, FISMA 204. That is our new traceability rule that the FDA is rolling out. It's slightly delayed because the industry could not get ready in time to meet the actual requirement, but it is by no means stopped. The great thing about this kind of work is we are now going to be even closer to understanding where our actual products and ingredients come from. And therefore, as a consumer, and hopefully with new and emerging technology, we'll be able to say, okay, here's a QR code. I'm going to read that QR code, and I can see, okay, so my coffee bean came from Colombia. It was then roasted in Italy. It was then shipped over to the US and sold in a Kroger's or in a Costco, and that's how I dubbed my table. That is fantastic. It also allows us then to make sure that if there is a food safety incident, we can recall it a lot more quickly. And we can identify the source of where the problem actually is, go back and fix it at the source. And then thirdly, and this is going to be more long-term, but it's already happening, particularly in Europe, sustainability requirements. Well, I want to make sure that it's done on a farm that takes good care of its people, where water is actually, water usage is minimized, where packaging is recycled. So again, all of these kind of elements are coming into play because consumers would like to know those things. Or at least they say they do. Sometimes they say they do, but they don't. But we'll see where that one goes.
[Callin Godson-Green] It's the thing to do. You know, sustainability is a bit of a buzzword now. And I agree. I think that in Europe, in terms of sustainability, Europe is definitely ahead of the US and even the masters that I did in Dublin. used to be called Food Safety Management, and it's now called Food Safety and Sustainability Management. So even that slight change to the course title, I think literally reflects that overall. So I think that people, as you say, they think they want something because it's a bit of a buzzword and it's what's going on. But understanding exactly what goes into that and the levels of it and changes that they could maybe make in their daily life that would help impact it, that kind of comes secondary.
[Quincy Lissaur] Of course. And where we then end up working is closely with FAO, the 17 sustainable development goals, right? No hunger, life on land, life in water, life everywhere. And these are difficult, complex, and very big problems that we're trying to address, but they're not insurmountable. Only thing is it becomes insurmountable if you look at it from your own organization and in its own silo. But the moment that we start working together, that's when we can really start making significant progress. And that's why I'm so proud of running as safe. It's like we are getting together. Everything that we do, we give away for free. And we're doing great good for the overall advancement and improvement of things of life on Earth.
[Darin Detwiler] You know, one thing that's crazy, you were talking about change in that course, but if you look at change in our systems, we've talked about Iceland, we've talked about Mexico, we've talked about so many different geographical locations. There are times where you may be getting a salad in Iceland and you may be getting a salad in Mexico City and there's ingredients that are in both cases, they're coming from the same place. But we know for a fact that there are situations where over the last several years, the farmers couldn't tell you where the product ended up and the retailers couldn't tell you where it came from. You literally could be getting the same ingredients from the same location and not really, if there's an outbreak, or even a recall tied to that, if we're not able to trace that back, then wherever you're in one place or another, you're still dealing with the same constraints in terms of that lack of that bigger connectedness.
[Quincy Lissaur] No, absolutely. And that's why we're participating in the PFT. It's A consortium that has been set up by the Atchison Group and Levitt Partners, specifically to try to address the challenges that we have to start tracing back more effectively and meet the requirements of FISMA 204. But it's fundamental. the quicker that we can respond to these particular outbreaks and find out where it actually came from, the more consumers that we can protect or even lives that we can save.
[Darin Detwiler] Do you think that with more diversity of where we're getting our foods from, that we have to be able to match different ways in which data is being collected? Or should there be more kind of uniform you need to be collecting this kind of data because if you want to cross international borders, you need to have this basic baseline, universal type information.
[Quincy Lissaur] Great question. So from our organization, we're all about standards and harmonization. So I would say the more commonality we get amongst it, the easier it's going to be to get things done on a cross-border basis. So one of the reasons why my members, even though FISMA 204 is a US-specific piece of regulation, are asking me to participate in it because they're like, hey, Quincy, keep an eye on this because codex have a guide, guide 60 on traceability, ISO have a standard on traceability. It is global. And when more than 60% of our food supply here in the US comes from outside of the borders of the United States, the more that we harmonize and the more that we standardize, the better it's going to be. So long as the data is accurate, so long as the data is interoperable. And that is one of the things that we need to make sure that we do as an industry.
[Darin Detwiler] And we have to look at data in terms of not only like the technology, but I would imagine too that politically, I mean, there are a lot of political forces right now, whether we're talking about the difference between being part of the United Nations or being part of the European Union or being, having this agreement or the tariffs or isolationism, the idea that like, for instance, right now Canada is looking at becoming more independent with some of their produce being less dependent on getting it from California and Mexico. There's other countries. We looked at Brexit, for instance. How is that going to play out? And there are going to be those changes, economic and political, that, you know, I think most consumers are not going to pay attention to, but the industry has to be flexible and has to have that support in order to meet those changing demands and realize that change may be for a long while, it may be for a short while, but we still have to deal with these changes. Is that something that your organization looks at in terms of being able to weather these global political issues? And not, we mentioned bird flu and the pandemic, but even, changes in politics.
[Quincy Lissaur] Absolutely. Guess where our next board meeting is going to be? In Switzerland, a couple of days at Nestle, and then one full day at the WTO, at the World Trade Organization. Because we know that disruptions in supply can have significant negative impacts. not only financially, but also where am I going to get my supply from as a result of prices going up through tariffs? What is that going to do to frog? Is it going to increase frog? Are people then going to try to do things to our food supply in order to try to commit terrorist acts, right? So that's where we get into food defense. That whole space of food integrity is fundamental for us to be able to make sure that the consumers are safe, that our products are good, that they are nutritious, and that supply chains are actually stable. Ultimately, also driving food security. Because again, where we have an abundance of food supply in certain parts of the world, there's still a lack of food supply in other parts of the world. And what we want to try to do, even though over the last 50 to 100 years, everything has gotten better. And generally, if you look at the numbers, everything is going up and up and up of improvements, we're still not there where we want to be in order to really protect the humans worldwide. I'm glad you brought up food fraud. Do you think about food fraud ever?
[Callin Godson-Green] Unfortunately, yes, but I do feel like the layman doesn't. Like, TASIP and VASIP were massive components of my studies, so yes, and I actually think, you know, if you recall the... this strawberry incident in Australia, where there are people picking the strawberries or putting little needles in them, that was really massive in Ireland because obviously half of Ireland's population moves to Australia. So it was something that we focus a lot on. Yeah, but I don't think that consumers ever think about like terrorism in terms of food, you know, that bioterrorism at all in that way.
[Darin Detwiler] Yeah, it's amazing when you look at the how. Because of the nature of our food supply, it just invites opportunity for an economic opportunity, if you will, for whether it's counterfeit, fraud, intentional mislabeling, or we even see with cybersecurity the idea of operational technology and information technology. And so are you talking about these ranges of fraud and bioterrorism and cybersecurity issues on a global sense within your organization?
[Quincy Lissaur] Absolutely. So when GFSI came out with their requirement that you need to do a vulnerability assessment and prepare a mitigation plan, nobody knew how to do it. So S-Safe stepped in and developed a free tool available in 10 different languages. You can download it from our website to help you undertake with a series of 50 questions. a vulnerability assessment and prepare your own mitigation plan. But we continue to talk about fraud because fraud hasn't gone away. We've been talking about it here at IAFP in one of the PDG groups yesterday. And consumer expectation keeps on increasing. I'll give you a great example. Organic or non-organic is an area where we're seeing significant growth in terms of fraud. but even in plastics. So I'll give you a great example. We're trying to drive towards recycled plastics, and that is great. However, the cost of recycled plastic is higher than virgin plastic. So now we're starting to see virgin plastic being called recycled plastic, even though it isn't. Nothing to do with food safety, but still, from a fraud perspective, are we meeting what the customer or the consumer is actually expecting? And whether that is for economic gain or otherwise, it is the wrong thing to do. And that is what my members definitely try to work on so hard to try to make sure that ultimately the consumer is protected from a safety perspective, but also from an expectation perspective. And that they get what they say they're supposed to be getting.
[Darin Detwiler] Well, that kind of shades of reputation, you know, whether you're talking about food safety or food fraud or the plastic, which may not necessarily fit in those categories. It all comes down to if a company is saying they do this, but they don't do this, then how does that play out in terms of a bigger reputation? And we know that a lot of different digital solutions that people are using to collect data, to be, you know, 24-7 monitoring different things, it's not purely for their internal satisfaction. It is for this idea of being able to put their money where their mouth is in terms of we are working towards being able to have transparency with our reputation. What do you see in terms of how tools are being used in terms of reputation space?
[Callin Godson-Green] To be honest, I think that consumers, you kind of alluded to this, they want more and they're asking for more. And I actually think the example of organic versus non-organic is a perfect example. It's increasing in trend or popularity. almost because people are becoming more aware of it and they think they deserve better. And sometimes there might even be an education that definitely is actually an education perspective into that in that maybe consumers don't understand even what organic is, but they feel like it's better and they should, they deserve better. So that's why they're going to choose organic. They don't understand the different farming practices or what it involves, but it's kind of reinforced that consumers want more and want to see more and are asking for more. So, we've talked to a few people that work kind of at the end of the supply chain direct to consumer, and they are talking about how, consumers are asking more questions, they're coming in, they want to know where things came from, and they're not willing to kind of just take what they can get. They've so many options now as well. So they can say like, I'm not going to shop here anymore. I'm going to go here instead or I'm not going to buy this brand. I'm going to go to there instead because they deserve and they do deserve to know what's going on and what they are eating and buying for their families.
[Darin Detwiler] I think too how there are bad actors whose actions will undermine the good actors, because people will lump them all into the same category, right? It's not just these people that do this, oh, everyone in the organic space, you can't trust them, right? You don't want that, especially if you're the ones out there proving that here are the standards that I am transparent and I uphold. And you should, you know, I think that it's problematic for you to convince a consumer, trust them, not them.
[Callin Godson-Green] Yeah.
[Darin Detwiler] That's, you don't want to say that, but that's kind of the reality out there in terms of the challenges.
[Quincy Lissaur] And we come back full circuit to where we started this conversation, Darin. It's all about together we are stronger. Yeah. A problem for one is a problem for all, right? You got an outbreak in peanut butter. The entire peanut butter market is going to collapse, right? Very good actors in the supply chain. It wasn't part of their And we see this over and over again.
[Darin Detwiler] Jack-in-the-box, it wasn't just that company, it was all other hamburger companies saw a dip. Chipotle, it wasn't just that Mexican restaurant, it was all Mexican restaurants. The lettuce, the recurring lettuces, it wasn't just those companies At the heart of it, was anyone that was selling leafy greens. Because again, I don't know where this comes from. I just got it from the store and it falls in that category. So I'm going to avoid all of this. And I thought it was interesting when... with the lettuce example, for a while there, the FDA was, oh, well, we can't tell you who to avoid, but just avoid everyone that was coming out of this geographic location. Well, I guess that's better than avoid everything. But we do that kind of trust thing in terms of, you know, fool me once, you know, shame on you, but fool me twice, shame on me. I'm going to be observant and cautious about everyone kind of thing. And you brought up some pretty big names. Names that, you think that, I'm sure they don't see a lot of outbreaks and recalls. Everyone, everyone, everyone.
[Callin Godson-Green] And even if they don't, they're impacted, as you said.
[Darin Detwiler] Exactly, If they're not behind it here, they're impacted there. And, you know, we talked to some retail experts and, you know, sometimes you'll hear, oh, this is recall with this store. It's like, okay, the product was sold there, but it's not their fault. But there's also times where, It's this product, but it's actually not the manufacturer's product. It's what happened after it was distributed. So fraud can happen anywhere. Outbreaks and recalls, the cause of it can happen anywhere along the lines. But that partnership kind of allows us, I would imagine, to be able to say, We're looking at this from every point along the journey.
[Quincy Lissaur] Yeah, and Darin, look, this is what we do. We work in a pre-competitive space, right? I've got Coca-Cola sitting next to PepsiCo at my table, right? We're not talking about competing. They compete very hard in the marketplace, but they also recognize They both have very good food safety and quality programs. And they can learn from each other in that pre-competitive space. And that is fundamental. And not just that, some of the work that Cargill is doing, McDonald's can learn from. They're at opposite ends of the food supply chain. And yet, by working together, they're so much stronger. And we learn from each other in this pre-competitive space to make sure that we protect the consumer ultimately. And guess what? All of us are consumers, right? You are, both of us are. All of us are.
[Darin Detwiler] Well, and all of us, see, we all flew in here for this conference. And, you know, I spend a lot of time at airports. And spoiler alert, I do not eat at every possible restaurant there is at an airport. It just seems like a playground where there could be a lot of risks and a lot of factors there. But one of the things I do know is that a lot of those food court type restaurants, they could learn a lesson from McDonald's because McDonald's has squared away in terms of their uniformity. And when you look at somebody's resume, it's also like, oh, we sell pizza. Now we're going to do breakfast all of a sudden. And they don't have the demand is there. Yeah, they see demand before they see we need to have our SOPs, and we need to have tested this, we need to have tried this.
[Callin Godson-Green] Never served an undercooked egg in their life, and then they add it to the menu. You can have your eggs anyway that you want.
[Darin Detwiler] Exactly. But you also have a scenario where, you know, these people are going to be in and out of there, and they're not going to get sick there at the airport in whatever city or state there, and they're going to go back home. And so now public health becomes something that you've got a lot of moving parts. So I would imagine that S-Safe and partnership has to take in consideration that these different companies, these multinational companies, are also dealing with the fact that public health in Europe is different than public health in North America is different than public health in New York or Cleveland, Ohio or Los Angeles, California, that there are these other sources of data and other sources of pressure points or pain points that have to be considered in the bigger picture.
[Quincy Lissaur] Absolutely. And that's why it's so important to have an organization like Codex Alimentarius. They bring the regulators from around the world together to try to advance that food safety worldwide. And certain countries don't have the same resources that the US or Europe or Australia have, or Japan for that matter. And yet also on top of that, certain countries want to do things in a different way. Their risk appetite is different. HACCP is very important. A hazard analysis is great, but a hazard is not necessarily a risk, right? And now we're looking at, okay, should we go more to risk-based systems? And then what is your question at a national level or even a regional level or even a city level? What is my risk appetite? Do I want to set my MRL at one particle per billion or do I want to set it at 10 particles per billion? Also then taking into account food security. Because if you suddenly set it way too low, all of a sudden there's going to be non-compliance across sector as a whole. We get a lot of food loss, a lot of food waste, and there's going to be people that are not going to have enough food to eat. So we're currently working on a paper together with FAO and a former member of the Codex executive, specifically to write a paper to really stimulate some thinking at the global regulatory level to say, hey, What is our risk appetite? And where should we go as we're trying to make sure that we feed the entire world, i.e. go to 0 hunger under the SDG, make sure there's food security, make sure that the food is safe, but there are degrees of safety. It's not black or white. Like everything in life, the world is gray. So that's kind of what we're trying to address as well right now.
[Darin Detwiler] Well, on that note, before we wrap up here, I want to look at the idea of, you know, You're talking about this meeting coming up next year?
[Quincy Lissaur] No, in a couple of weeks. A couple of months, sorry.
[Darin Detwiler] A spoiler alert for those people who would not necessarily be attending or looking at your agenda. What would be a pressing issue that most people would not predict would be on that list?
[Quincy Lissaur] But then there's a number of different topics we've got on the go right now. One is recycled water, and that is not purely recycled water of water that has been used on a farm or in a facility recycle, but also water coming out of the sky. So rain, and how we're using and recycling some of that water and its potential impact on certain crops. I think that's one. Another one is micro and nanoplastics. There's a lot of conversation about that. Some of it comes out of packaging. So we're having one discussion around recycled food contact materials, where we're in discussion with Codex, maybe do some work around that. But the other one as well is, what is the impact of micro and nanoplastics on human health? We're still lacking an awful lot of science in that particular space. We need to get it. but is it having an impact on human health? If so, how bad is it? And if so, what can we do about it? Do we get rid of all plastics? Perhaps, but then what do we use instead? Okay, we're going to go back to glass, much heavier. So now your carbon footprint is going up. And that's where, particularly when we're dealing with sustainability in the food sector, it is such a difficult topic. So those are some of the things that we are thinking about right now and really trying to get ahead of the problem before we start getting significant health issues amongst the human and animal population.
[Darin Detwiler] Quincy Lissaur, SSAFE. Good luck in a few months in Switzerland. And I'd love to hear back. It's always great to run into you. We keep running into each other in different parts. This is like the closest to home I think we've run into each other in a while. But you know, these issues are so global. These issues are requiring not only a global place to talk about them, but the global community to really focus on what are the challenges, what is the information telling us, and what are the solutions we can look at. And I really appreciate you sharing some of that with us today.
[Quincy Lissaur] Oh, thanks for inviting me. I mean, we're always open. We're nonprofit, so it's all about sharing and I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you guys this afternoon. Thanks.
[Darin Detwiler] For Spoiler Alert!, I'm Dr. Darin Detwiler.
[Callin Godson-Green] And I'm Callin Godson-Green.
[Darin Detwiler] Join us next time.
